This article is a rebuttal to The nice people in Ukraine by Kevin Michelizzi, and The Good Ukrainians, Continued is Kevin’s response to this rebuttal. Lately I have been taken to task for my strong criticism of the Ukrainian people, especially in terms of their collective responsibility regarding the tragedy that has befallen Ukraine because of Russia’s ongoing Special Military Operation, or SMO.
What Americans should be asking themselves is "Where are the good Americans?" Our government is pushing this atrocity, perhaps even to the brink of nuclear annihiliation, in lock step with the UK and NATO. Who in the Congress has spoken out about the Ukrainian kill lists which Scott and I, and others are on? A few representatives have, but most of our neighbors have buried their noses in the sand, hoping to survive. We need people to at least have the courage of the black Americans in the Montgomery Bus Boycott!
Yes, Ukraine is a deeply pathological country, but how did it get this way? We know its past as essentially a battlefield on which larger powers fought (and continue to fight), but old wounds can be healed. I blame the US. The US stuck its nose into an already sick country, with rampant corruption, infested with extreme ideologies, and exploited Ukraine's pathology in its agenda to get at Russia. It made a dysfunctional place even worse, much much worse, by empowering the worst elements of Ukrainian society to serve its agenda. Now we have a country that is as bad as Stalin's USSR, where no male between 16 and 60 can leave, the SBU tortures and kills anyone suspected of disloyalty, all opposition parties are banned, and the media dares not object. Ukraine has been turned into a hellscape, and the bulk of the blame lies on the US and its neocon agenda.
Small note: the veneration of Bandera pre-dates the 2014 coup, he was declared a hero of Ukraine while Yushchenko was in power. I have been saying this for a while now: This is Yugoslavia 2.0 scenario and Ukraine is the analogue of Croatia. Back then we did not have the information sources that we have now so it went largely unnoticed.
I appreciate the debate between you and Kevin. I have enjoyed reading both of your commentaries and I understand both perspectives. The entire situation is just heartbreaking. And yes, they should have done differently.
Fascism is a kind of cultural narcissism really, it appeals to the egos of people to think that they are a superior race, and to claim a special kind of victimhood, thus justifying any cruelty they inflict upon their perceived oppressors.
But there is also the amount of brainwashing involved. Ukrainians have been steeped in this nationalist rubbish all of their lives. From the time that they are children in their little Plast uniforms learning how to handle automatic weapons. There are hundreds of videos of little Ukrainian children holding knives and saying they will kill "Moskals." This is psychological abuse. On a mass scale.
Yes, they should have not let it happen. But the same can be true of us in the United States. We should not have allowed this to happen.
I feel sorry for these people. I hate what they do. I do not excuse it. But my heart breaks for them. And if you talk to the people in Donbass, who have been bombarded by the fascists all these years, they feel pity for the Ukrainians. Even after how they have been terrorized, they still think of Ukrainians as their brothers and sisters.
The roots of this are so deep... they will not heal for a very long time, long after the war ends, long after Ukraine dies.
Is not "Elimination Russiaphobia" a characteristic of Americans as well?
A revealing exercise : Plug in "USA" and "Americans" where you see "Ukraine" and "Ukrainians" ( or Germany and Germans ) in the essay above, and see if it still reads true. Or even more true.
I believe this is a very good document thanks. We are descending into the fog of war as we become more and more divided and contentious. The evil people ride slick white horses but these remain pale white horses. Those who stoke the fires will get burnt, despite my use of mixed metaphors.
The facts confirm what Scott is saying. I have made my arguments in the comment under Kevin's text (see the previous article).
For those who do not believe or do not understand, some hints to texts/documentaries/photos which made me think:
1. Pro-nazism in the western Ukraine is "grassroot", not created by the government after 2014 (the ultranationalists only gave people the "green light" to express their beliefs openly - connected to the WWII collaboration). Watch the BBC documentary What Our Fathers Did: A Nazi Legacy (2015), especialy scenes near the end of film: https://rumble.com/v16sqr7-what-our-fathers-did-a-nazi-legacy-documentary.html
(Poles focused on this matter because of the massacres of Polish population during the WWII - you have probably heard about the "famous" Volhynia massacre.)
4. Read Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem and contemplate on the concept of banality of evil.
5. Read Karl Jaspers' The Question of German Guilt (Die Schuldfrage, 1946) and THINK ABOUT YOURSELF and YOUR ROLE.
I agree with Diane Sare, that we should think about OUR OWN guilt, before pointing fingers to Ukrainians or anyone else - this war was incited and maintained by the West, so we, people of the Western countries, cannot pretend we have nothing to do with this. We have the ethical responsibility to do something!
Perhaps some guidance from the Bible is in order here. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were among the first people/city states condemned for their evil, yet Abraham bargained with God for their forgiveness and finally God agreed to spare both cities if just *ten* righteous men could be found within. In short, God gave us a metric with which to judge a “people” and it is a very strong evidentiary standard indeed. Are there not ten righteous people in all of Ukraine? Certainly. I would not be so quick to condemn an entire people as you seem to be doing. None of this however, makes the current conflict illicit on the part of Russia. Even Putin, as you’ve repeatedly acknowledged, considered the people of Ukraine brethren and initially conducted a limited war as to “spare” these “good” people. If the aggrieved party can believe such, who am I, or you, to say differently?
Fully agree with you, Scott. You are absolutely right in every sentence. Good Ukranians lived at the time in Crimea and did not accept what happened in Kiev. Good Ukraninians lived in Donbass region and 9 years fought for their existence. Good Ukranians are those who were imprisoned because they were not agree. As far as for those who still on territory 404...They will do the very same thing as Germans did on May 9th of 1945. Germans became anti fascists right away on that day, in case some of you forgot it.
I will tell a little story about "good ukrainians". I had a friend. We went to the same school with 2 years diffrence in attending. That was in Baku, Azerbaijan. Because of the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan we had to flea our city. My family moved to Moldova where we had close relatives and then to USA. He moved to Ukraine, Lugansk city to be precise. In May of 2014 I met my friend in Seattle. He won a green card in the lottery. His wife did not want to move here, she wanted to raise their kids in Russian culture. So he lived between 2 countries flying to Ukraine 4-5 times a year. There was already going so called Anti Terror Operation from junta goverment in Kiev against Donbass. My friend told me about everything that was going on in Lugansk and Donetsk. There was no electric power, no water. People lived and still live in horrrific environment. I offred him some monetay help for those who in need and he gladly accepted. Each time we met I gave hime as much I was able to get. That continued for about 2 years. then he dissapeared. Two more years later by pure accident I've learnt what happened. They had neighbors who moved there from west Ukraine. 1st thing they did posted big pig photo of Stepan Bandera and then started their "work" by reporting on people who were against Kiev goverment. One day a security service showed up at the a door of my friend house. Took whole family out to the yard and then shot them. First kids, then wife, them him.
And this continues today. Lots of innocent people die daily because someone wants to be a very "good ukranian".
Kinda weird to have this take on Ukraine and not on Israel. I mean, everything Scott deplores in Ukraine goes, like 10x and 50+ years longer for what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. With it’s population being at best apathetic, but mostly increasingly supportive to enthusiastic that Israel is entitled to bully, police, and dominate the Palestinian people.
FBI deliberately lied to social media companies about Hunter Biden laptop (actually three water-damaged laptops - not just one) – FBI knew the truth exactly – laptops were in their possession for one (1) year
All Ukrainians are now getting what they wanted, a government that will manage their lives, take away all their self-agency, and turn them into raw material for a neo-liberal hell hole. There are of course, those Ukrainians, like Canadian Deputy PM Chrystia Freeland, who will garner all the goodies from making Ukraine into a moral cesspit that would make the 3rd Reich proud.
What Americans should be asking themselves is "Where are the good Americans?" Our government is pushing this atrocity, perhaps even to the brink of nuclear annihiliation, in lock step with the UK and NATO. Who in the Congress has spoken out about the Ukrainian kill lists which Scott and I, and others are on? A few representatives have, but most of our neighbors have buried their noses in the sand, hoping to survive. We need people to at least have the courage of the black Americans in the Montgomery Bus Boycott!
Yes, Ukraine is a deeply pathological country, but how did it get this way? We know its past as essentially a battlefield on which larger powers fought (and continue to fight), but old wounds can be healed. I blame the US. The US stuck its nose into an already sick country, with rampant corruption, infested with extreme ideologies, and exploited Ukraine's pathology in its agenda to get at Russia. It made a dysfunctional place even worse, much much worse, by empowering the worst elements of Ukrainian society to serve its agenda. Now we have a country that is as bad as Stalin's USSR, where no male between 16 and 60 can leave, the SBU tortures and kills anyone suspected of disloyalty, all opposition parties are banned, and the media dares not object. Ukraine has been turned into a hellscape, and the bulk of the blame lies on the US and its neocon agenda.
Small note: the veneration of Bandera pre-dates the 2014 coup, he was declared a hero of Ukraine while Yushchenko was in power. I have been saying this for a while now: This is Yugoslavia 2.0 scenario and Ukraine is the analogue of Croatia. Back then we did not have the information sources that we have now so it went largely unnoticed.
I appreciate the debate between you and Kevin. I have enjoyed reading both of your commentaries and I understand both perspectives. The entire situation is just heartbreaking. And yes, they should have done differently.
Fascism is a kind of cultural narcissism really, it appeals to the egos of people to think that they are a superior race, and to claim a special kind of victimhood, thus justifying any cruelty they inflict upon their perceived oppressors.
But there is also the amount of brainwashing involved. Ukrainians have been steeped in this nationalist rubbish all of their lives. From the time that they are children in their little Plast uniforms learning how to handle automatic weapons. There are hundreds of videos of little Ukrainian children holding knives and saying they will kill "Moskals." This is psychological abuse. On a mass scale.
Yes, they should have not let it happen. But the same can be true of us in the United States. We should not have allowed this to happen.
I feel sorry for these people. I hate what they do. I do not excuse it. But my heart breaks for them. And if you talk to the people in Donbass, who have been bombarded by the fascists all these years, they feel pity for the Ukrainians. Even after how they have been terrorized, they still think of Ukrainians as their brothers and sisters.
The roots of this are so deep... they will not heal for a very long time, long after the war ends, long after Ukraine dies.
Is not "Elimination Russiaphobia" a characteristic of Americans as well?
A revealing exercise : Plug in "USA" and "Americans" where you see "Ukraine" and "Ukrainians" ( or Germany and Germans ) in the essay above, and see if it still reads true. Or even more true.
I believe this is a very good document thanks. We are descending into the fog of war as we become more and more divided and contentious. The evil people ride slick white horses but these remain pale white horses. Those who stoke the fires will get burnt, despite my use of mixed metaphors.
The facts confirm what Scott is saying. I have made my arguments in the comment under Kevin's text (see the previous article).
For those who do not believe or do not understand, some hints to texts/documentaries/photos which made me think:
1. Pro-nazism in the western Ukraine is "grassroot", not created by the government after 2014 (the ultranationalists only gave people the "green light" to express their beliefs openly - connected to the WWII collaboration). Watch the BBC documentary What Our Fathers Did: A Nazi Legacy (2015), especialy scenes near the end of film: https://rumble.com/v16sqr7-what-our-fathers-did-a-nazi-legacy-documentary.html
2. The problem of Ukrainian "Hitlerjugend" - see 2015 photos military summer camps led by Azov: https://www.unicef.de/informieren/aktuelles/photo-of-the-year/contest-2016/honorable-mentions/-/alex-masi/129106 Those children have grown up and now participate in whitewashing in mainstream media.
3. Take your time and read the history of the OUN-B and Stepan Bandera, there are plenty sources in English translation, for example:
- Robert Ziętek: Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists during the Second World War. Roczniki Humanistyczne 52/2 (2004). https://ojs.tnkul.pl/index.php/rh/article/view/4921
- Mirosław Szumiło: Stepan Bandera – leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists. Institute of National Remembrance, 23. 4. 2021. https://ipn.gov.pl/en/digital-resources/articles/8044,Stepan-Bandera-leader-of-the-Organisation-of-Ukrainian-Nationalists.html
(Poles focused on this matter because of the massacres of Polish population during the WWII - you have probably heard about the "famous" Volhynia massacre.)
4. Read Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem and contemplate on the concept of banality of evil.
5. Read Karl Jaspers' The Question of German Guilt (Die Schuldfrage, 1946) and THINK ABOUT YOURSELF and YOUR ROLE.
I agree with Diane Sare, that we should think about OUR OWN guilt, before pointing fingers to Ukrainians or anyone else - this war was incited and maintained by the West, so we, people of the Western countries, cannot pretend we have nothing to do with this. We have the ethical responsibility to do something!
Perhaps some guidance from the Bible is in order here. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were among the first people/city states condemned for their evil, yet Abraham bargained with God for their forgiveness and finally God agreed to spare both cities if just *ten* righteous men could be found within. In short, God gave us a metric with which to judge a “people” and it is a very strong evidentiary standard indeed. Are there not ten righteous people in all of Ukraine? Certainly. I would not be so quick to condemn an entire people as you seem to be doing. None of this however, makes the current conflict illicit on the part of Russia. Even Putin, as you’ve repeatedly acknowledged, considered the people of Ukraine brethren and initially conducted a limited war as to “spare” these “good” people. If the aggrieved party can believe such, who am I, or you, to say differently?
Fully agree with you, Scott. You are absolutely right in every sentence. Good Ukranians lived at the time in Crimea and did not accept what happened in Kiev. Good Ukraninians lived in Donbass region and 9 years fought for their existence. Good Ukranians are those who were imprisoned because they were not agree. As far as for those who still on territory 404...They will do the very same thing as Germans did on May 9th of 1945. Germans became anti fascists right away on that day, in case some of you forgot it.
I will tell a little story about "good ukrainians". I had a friend. We went to the same school with 2 years diffrence in attending. That was in Baku, Azerbaijan. Because of the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan we had to flea our city. My family moved to Moldova where we had close relatives and then to USA. He moved to Ukraine, Lugansk city to be precise. In May of 2014 I met my friend in Seattle. He won a green card in the lottery. His wife did not want to move here, she wanted to raise their kids in Russian culture. So he lived between 2 countries flying to Ukraine 4-5 times a year. There was already going so called Anti Terror Operation from junta goverment in Kiev against Donbass. My friend told me about everything that was going on in Lugansk and Donetsk. There was no electric power, no water. People lived and still live in horrrific environment. I offred him some monetay help for those who in need and he gladly accepted. Each time we met I gave hime as much I was able to get. That continued for about 2 years. then he dissapeared. Two more years later by pure accident I've learnt what happened. They had neighbors who moved there from west Ukraine. 1st thing they did posted big pig photo of Stepan Bandera and then started their "work" by reporting on people who were against Kiev goverment. One day a security service showed up at the a door of my friend house. Took whole family out to the yard and then shot them. First kids, then wife, them him.
And this continues today. Lots of innocent people die daily because someone wants to be a very "good ukranian".
May your voice never fade or be silenced, Mr Ritter! Human, hero, legend!
Thank you. And a bit of history:
Why should we hate China and Chinese people even more…
https://rumble.com/v1z7ssx-chinas-century-of-humiliation-and-us-chinese-tensions-today-wcarl-zha.html
China's "Century of Humiliation" & US-Chinese Tensions Today with Carl Zha – Dec 6, 2022
Small correction--the rallying cry of the Banderistas is "Slava Ukraini" (Ukraini = "to Ukraine")
Kinda weird to have this take on Ukraine and not on Israel. I mean, everything Scott deplores in Ukraine goes, like 10x and 50+ years longer for what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. With it’s population being at best apathetic, but mostly increasingly supportive to enthusiastic that Israel is entitled to bully, police, and dominate the Palestinian people.
Thank you !!
FBI deliberately lied to social media companies about Hunter Biden laptop (actually three water-damaged laptops - not just one) – FBI knew the truth exactly – laptops were in their possession for one (1) year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIkwgDOad-A
https://rokfin.com/stream/26440
Thank you. excellent article with phenomenal insights. Thank yoo!
All Ukrainians are now getting what they wanted, a government that will manage their lives, take away all their self-agency, and turn them into raw material for a neo-liberal hell hole. There are of course, those Ukrainians, like Canadian Deputy PM Chrystia Freeland, who will garner all the goodies from making Ukraine into a moral cesspit that would make the 3rd Reich proud.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/12/against-the-backdrop-of-war-ukraine-is-rapidly-digitizing-everything.html